Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
32157 Replies
So you expect us to believe you made your SN Norm Finkelstein to mock him, and then every post you have made on this forum (that I have seen at least) is criticizing Israel? Strange way to mock someone who is known for being a critic of Israel.
Not sure I am actively trying to mock him by using his name as my SN. If anything it’s to get the reaction I got out of you and some Marxist a few days ago.
My critique of Israel is in regard to their despicable behaviour in the West Bank. Norm celebrated Oct 7. I didn’t.
Again. It’s a screen name. If you genuinely think a screen name tells you what someone “is about”. You need help.
But Brad, believe what you want. It’s not like my words aren’t very clear. It’s just that you wish to put more value into a screen name than actual written words.
Next sn is gonna be JeffEppstein69. See if you accuse me of rape then.
What exactly is your point, then, if not to make an incredibly halfased apology for Israel's genocide?
Let's walk through this, you and I: "Hamas dislikes gay people, therefore [insert your point here]"
Israel isn't committing genocide no matter how many times you and the rest of your ilk falsely claim otherwise so I'm not even entertaining your bad faith bullshit for so much of a nanosecond.
^^^Is driving 40k out of their homes in the WB ethnic cleansing?
Break down how? What does that even mean?
You come out with bullshit accusations and you get laughed at. Go on- add how they're ethnofascist, colonialist apartheid and all the other bad faith terms you lot regularly spew, so I can laugh at you some more and take you even less seriously than usual, if such a thing is even possible.
The irony of course is that there has actually been real ethnic cleansing in Gaza, OF JEWS. And it has happened multiple times recently.
Jews were a small minority population in Gaza for 1,000 years, until 1929 when the British forced them to leave for their own protection, because of all the Arab massacres and pogroms of Jews that were going on in that time period.
Then following the 6 Days War, when Israel took control of Gaza from Egypt, a few thousands Jews settled in Gaza. But they were ethnically cleansed when control of Gaza was given to the Palestinian people in the 1980s. And now not a single Jew in Gaza.
Similar ethnic cleansing of Jews took place repeatedly over the entire Middle East over the last 100 years or so. And guess what; this was met with nothing but indifference by western liberals like the ones in this thread.
Just remember anytime a western liberal or Muslim talks about "ethnic cleansing," they dont actually care about ethnic cleansing, as long as they support the people who are doing it. It is all completely bad faith.
The irony of course is that there has actually been real ethnic cleansing in Gaza, OF JEWS. And it has happened multiple times recently.
Jews were a small minority population in Gaza for 1,000 years, until 1929 when the British forced them to leave for their own protection, because of all the Arab massacres and pogroms of Jews that were going on in that time period.
Then following the 6 Days War, when Israel took control of Gaza from Egypt, a few thousands Jews settled in Gaza. But they were
Aah the classic ''Black people can't be racist because people are racist against black people'' argument. Except this one is a bit more insane as we are literally watching Israel displace thousands of people in the West Bank.
its also the idea that Jews (his word, not mine, thats the exact term that he uses, check this post and many others itt) are entitled to settle anywhere they want. Jews (again, his word and not mine) are not in the Gaza strip therefore it is ethnic cleansing. Arabs have no rights to any land, but Jews (in case you missed it, that is his word, not mine, he uses it repeatedly in the above post and for the prior year plus) have rights to any land anywhere they want.
Aah the classic ''Black people can't be racist because people are racist against black people'' argument. Except this one is a bit more insane as we are literally watching Israel displace thousands of people in the West Bank.
There are currently somewhere around 50 million refugees in the world. If we want to use the same system we use for Palestinians, where we just go back 5 generations and declare everyone a refugee, that number is probably like 500 million+.
Every single one of these instances could be framed as "ethnic cleansing". The point is the language you use is bad faith and completely politicized; to the point it has no real meaning disassociated from political ideology.
Every single one of these instances could be framed as "ethnic cleansing".
no **** dude
There are currently somewhere around 50 million refugees in the world. If we want to use the same system we use for Palestinians, where we just go back 5 generations and declare everyone a refugee, that number is probably like 500 million+.
Every single one of these instances could be framed as "ethnic cleansing". The point is the language you use is bad faith and completely politicized; to the point it has no real meaning disassociated from political ideology.
I'm not a fan of the bastardization of the terms genocide, ethnic cleansing, Antisemitism and racism either. I'm also not going to pretend Israel isn't misbehaving(too put it lightly) in the West Bank. Can you at least admit to that? If not. The only one being ''bad faith'' is you.
I'm not a fan of the bastardization of the terms genocide, ethnic cleansing, Antisemitism and racism either. I'm also not going to pretend Israel isn't misbehaving(too put it lightly) in the West Bank. Can you at least admit to that? If not. The only one being ''bad faith'' is you.
What's your counterproposal for Israel to guarantee they can kill every single Hamas member, or material supporter, who lives in the WB, which i hope you agree it's something they not only have a right to do, but which is an utmost moral imperative?
I am open to different solutions if they allow for the extermination of every single terrorist and supporter of terrorism with lower civilian casualties.
If though what they are doing is the only thing they can do to achieve that, then no i disagree that's "misbehaving". They have a complete, unlimited moral right to do absolute everything that allows for the complete eradication of all terrorists
I'm not a fan of the bastardization of the terms genocide, ethnic cleansing, Antisemitism and racism either. I'm also not going to pretend Israel isn't misbehaving(too put it lightly) in the West Bank. Can you at least admit to that? If not. The only one being ''bad faith'' is you.
Israel canÂ’t allow the West Bank to militarize and become a launching pad for rockets like Gaza has. It is too close to their major population centers. It would be an existential threat.
Do you accept this premise?
Israel has decided to mitigate this threat through settlements and dividing up the Palestinian West Bank cities to block organization and militarization, and it has generally worked. The West Bank is not the security threat it once was or could be.
Keeping IsraelÂ’s security needs in mind, and the nature of Palestinian society and the perverse incentive structures the rest of the world has created, could a more humane strategy have worked? I legitimately donÂ’t know.
If you want to say Israel has misbehaved that is fine. But you should also really think of whether there was actually a better way for them to go about things, given how the rest of the world has acted and the perverse incentive structures in place.
If you think Israel has a moral obligation to take actions that would likely lead to its destruction, then you are free to your opinion. But you also have to accept that they arenÂ’t going to do this.
That being said, do I think right wing religious extremism in Israel sucks and is a problem and I wish didnÂ’t exist, just as I wish Islamism didnÂ’t exist. I definitely do.
But even in some alternate reality where there was no one settling the west bank for right wing religious reasons, Israel would probably be doing something similar to mitigate the security threats from the West Bank.
The fundamental problem is that Palestinians have never been able to create a society where the state controls violence. Extra state militant groups always have veto power to use violence to start wars towards political ends pretty much anytime they want to.
Palestinians are not alone in this. Many Arab countries are similar. But because of geographical realities Israel must do whatever it can to mitigate the threat from the West Bank.l, and it isn’t obvious to me there is a better way to go about this; given how the rest of the world has behaved.
What's your counterproposal for Israel to guarantee they can kill every single Hamas member, or material supporter, who lives in the WB, which i hope you agree it's something they not only have a right to do, but which is an utmost moral imperative?
I am open to different solutions if they allow for the extermination of every single terrorist and supporter of terrorism with lower civilian casualties.
If though what they are doing is the only thing they can do to achieve that, then no i disagree th
This seems morally dubious wrapped with a moral superiority bow
At a micro level do I find the attitudes and behavior of many fundamentalist religious right wing Israeli settlers abhorrent, and do I wish the Israeli govt was doing more to stop this behavior. Definitely.
But at the macro level I think even if this was happening, it wouldn’t affect the general strategy much.
The first and second infintada happened, and Israel decided there can’t be a third. Gaza was given partial autonomy and became a rocket launching pad controlled by foreign funded militas. Israel decides That can’t happen in the West Bank.
If you can acknowledge these realities and still think you can come up with more morally palatable strategies that take into account realities of Palestinian society and incentive structures, I would love to hear them.
The only morality in this situation is the size of Israels stick, which is much larger than Gaza's or Hamas. You will never find a moral solution to this conundrum because the groups, ideologically, want to wipe each other out.
Its a completely ****ed situation with no good to dredge up.
Israel canÂ’t allow the West Bank to militarize and become a launching pad for rockets like Gaza has. It is too close to their major population centers. It would be an existential threat.
Do you accept this premise?
Yes. I agree a Gaza 2.0 where Hamas has free reign and gets to plan and potentially execute more October 7s is a catastrophe.
Israel has decided to mitigate this threat through settlements and dividing up the Palestinian West Bank cities to block organization and militarization, and it has generally worked. The West Bank is not the security threat it once was or could be.
Keeping IsraelÂ’s security needs in mind, and the nature of Palestinian society and the perverse incentive structures the rest of the world has created, could a more humane strategy have worked? I legitimately donÂ’t know.
If you want to say Israel has misbehaved that is fine. But you should also really think of whether there was actually a better way for them to go about things, given how the rest of the world has acted and the perverse incentive structures in place.
If you think Israel has a moral obligation to take actions that would likely lead to its destruction, then you are free to your opinion. But you also have to accept that they arenÂ’t going to do this.
That being said, do I think right wing religious extremism in Israel sucks and is a problem and I wish didnÂ’t exist, just as I wish Islamism didnÂ’t exist. I definitely do.
But even in some alternate reality where there was no one settling the west bank for right wing religious reasons, Israel would probably be doing something similar to mitigate the security threats from the West Bank.
The fundamental problem is that Palestinians have never been able to create a society where the state controls violence. Extra state militant groups always have veto power to use violence to start wars towards political ends pretty much anytime they want to.
Palestinians are not alone in this. Many Arab countries are similar. But because of geographical realities Israel must do whatever it can to mitigate the threat from the West Bank.l, and it isn’t obvious to me there is a better way to go about this; given how the rest of the world has behaved.
I'll agree that Gaza 2.0 in the West Bank is a bad idea. I agree that Arabs historically hate the Jews. I'm not convinced the threat you're describing specifically from the West Bank is present.
I'm also not convinced Israel is not trying to do exactly what I think they're doing. Annexing the West Bank.
I agree with Coordi though. To pretend I am anywhere near smart enough to come up with a solution for the mess that is that area is silly. Realistically the only way this ever gets resolved is if Israel takes the West Bank and Trump turns Gaza into his beach front property.
I have obvious problems with both those actions.
I agree that Arabs historically hate the Jews.
lol. Arabs famously did the genocide and pogroms. oh wait, that was White Europeans.
Everyone hates everyone else, but pre-1948 there's no question that anti-semitism was primarily a Christian thing.
Yes. I agree a Gaza 2.0 where Hamas has free reign and gets to plan and potentially execute more October 7s is a catastrophe.
I'll agree that Gaza 2.0 in the West Bank is a bad idea. I agree that Arabs historically hate the Jews. I'm not convinced the threat you're describing specifically from the West Bank is present.
I'm also not convinced Israel is not trying to do exactly what I think they're doing. Annexing the West Bank.
I agree with Coordi though. To pretend I am anywhere near smart enoug
Are you not convinced the West Bank is a potential existential threat for geographical reasons because you have spent a lot of time researching the topic and come to a conclusion the threat isn’t there? Or are you not convinced because it isn’t convenient to your preferred narrative?
Arabs have a problem with Israel. not with the Jews. but that distinction is harder and harder to realize given the activities of the Israelis and the Euros who seem intent on erasing it.
another thing is that "violence against Jews" is such a false way to frame it. its armed resistance against a colonial oppressor that has engaged in mass murder, ethnic cleansing, and now genocide. violence is legal and moral against murderous invaders, Jew or not.
and finally, criticizing any Palestinian for being antisemitic is about the dumbest thing ever.
